Jaime Grant: Polyamory for Dummies... and more

 Hello and welcome to Toni's table where conversational gastronomy is the main course. Pull up a chair and fill up your plate as we talk our way towards building community and connection one story at a time. I'm Toni Boyette. Let's dig in.

I'm so freaking excited. I don't even know where to start. I don't even know how to act or how I usually introduce this because today's guests are There's a friend who is a blast from my past, and, um, I'll let her introduce herself. Go ahead and introduce yourself, my love. Oh, hi, Toni. I'm Dr. Jamie Grant, and I am the author of Polyamory for Dummies.

Yay! If we had an applause track, we'd be playing it right now. Jamie and I know each other from, my lord, 20 years ago. And okay, I'm just going to say one of us was busy crisscrossing the country for really no good reason. And the other one of us was busy, uh, getting her graduate work on and becoming a sex activist coach and researcher and really giving such greatness to the world that we really, really need.

And Jamie just Well, the book is published now, right? So Jamie's just published a book with the For Dummies series, Polyamory for Dummies. But prior to that, Jamie has another book that she wrote back in 2015, 2016, right? Called Great Sex Mapping Your Desire. I gotta tell you, we're going to get into these books, but um, even if you're not actually having S E X, every adult really needs to read these books.

It's, it's because we all have desire, right? We all have desire and we're all in relationship, you know, no matter what that relationship looks like, we're all in relationship. So, um, Jamie, we're just going to jump into the book discussion because I, okay. And full disclosure, y'all, I tried to get my little mini Oprah on and like read the entire book before this discussion.

Right. This book, just, I was relating to it on so many different levels. You know, here I am, I'm this straight woman, I'm not in a polyamorous Relationship. At least not officially. Right. And, um, there was still so much that was relevant to my experience, my way of thought about relationships, especially after going through stuff in my own marriages that, yeah, I just really feel like everyone should read this.

So let's start with the question. Um, for folks who are not familiar, what is polyamory? Well, polyamory literally means more love, and Who doesn't want more of that? Who doesn't want more of that? And it's a form of non monogamous relating that generally means you're falling in love with more than one person.

It's not just that you're Hooking up although lots of Pali people do hook up But it sort of emphasizes creating an extended family of lovers Okay, and I swear I'm not trying to be flip. Yes But as I was reading this book and thinking well this really applies to All kinds of relationships, taking it out of the realm of lovers, for instance, you know, if I had five kids, you know, is that another form of polyamory?

Because I'm loving all these people, you know, it's not an intimate relationship, it's not a sexual relationship or anything like that. But you know, like I'm feeling this deep devotion and love to several people, allegedly equally, but we'll get into that parental myth later. Well, I do think a lot of poly people think of Love in what we call sort of an anarchic kind of way, and there's even a term relationship anarchy that's out there for people who don't prioritize sexual or romantic love over the other kinds of love in their life and other kinds of familial love.

You know, is seen as equally or more important. That basically the way you organize your life as a relationship anarchist is to, you know, treat everybody with the same kind of respect and those relationships with the same kind of weight. Okay, if it's not, you know, they, it's not really looking at your romantic or sexual partners.

As what you call sort of the, the core organizing concept for your life, right? Right. And a lot of Pali people, a lot of people in the book, and I have like 24 contributors of the book, it's a very Pali process, my book, um, I have 24 different people telling their Pali stories because I really wanted to bring out their richness and really the infinite variety of, you know, ways that Pali people are organizing their lives and a lot of, a lot of folks in there identify as anarchists.

Um, or if they don't identify as anarchists, they definitely see their friendships say as important as their sexual partners or their romantic partners. Um, so you get a lot of that in the book. Okay. That makes sense to me. And of course, in my very twisted little mind, and maybe this goes more towards kink, I, I started thinking about my relationships, not with people at all, but you know, gee, I've got my local bakery and then I've got the other bakeries that I'm equally devoted to.

And when I say devoted, you know, I'm honestly thinking about these places, right? I'm like, all right, am I in a polyamorous relationship with these sources of food, which is, you know, which is your, one of your core loves. Listen, I think this is. I think it's, I can't remember, chapter 10 or chapter 11 is about coming out Polly, and in it, I have people map their relationships, all of them, right?

Because when you're coming out, you need more support. But really, the pod map, which is um, an invention of Mia Mingus and the Bay Area Transformative Justice Collective. They have created this idea of creating a map for anyone in crisis. But I use it in my life to think about, Just kind of the resilience and strength of love in my life.

And in the pod map, you're at the center, right? Not a partnership, right? And then there's six people in sort of hard circles around you, like, you know, the, the hard outlined circles, and those are your six, And I say, you know, a lot of people don't have six, right? Maybe, maybe they have one. That's true, that's true, yeah.

Um, and so mapping this helps you see what you have, right? And then outside of the hard circle people, there's like dotted line people. And those are the people that are like, say, You know, a co worker who really loves you. People in your universe, but not necessarily in a circle. People in your universe, you might not see them all the time, but like, you know, they matter to your well being.

Right? Right, okay. And then there's four big circles that kind of are the four corners of this pod. And it reminds me of you bakery people. So for me, One is I have a strength and vitality coach. Okay. She's there. Another corner is BTS, the K pop boy band, because they are like this enormous source of joy for me in my life.

I follow their concerts. I look at, I look at BTS content every single day of my life. Can I tell you, can I look at you up there for a second? Um, that makes me feel so validated because when I was eight years old and I found out my mother died and I found out because I overheard someone talking about it.

My go to support was I had the mic, the Jackson five Christmas album and I picked up the album and talked to them and said, you know what? I think my mother's dead now and I took care of you. That was, yeah. Well listen, I mean I think I love BTS because I grew up in the Jacksons too. Right. And they take so much from the boy band traditions here.

Right. Right. I mean, they, they're also. Their own thing. But I, I mean, I relate to it. Right. And they got me through COVID. Oh man. And then I have an NA meeting because I'm a recovering addict and I, people in that meeting, I see them every Monday online. That's a core support. And some of them I've known 35 years of sobriety.

Wow. Right. Some of them I've known 20 years, but everyone in that meeting. Um, and then I can't remember what my fourth thing is, but I have, so, you know, and the pod really helps me think about what's happening in my poly life. Like those six people, you know, with the hard circles around them, they're really my poly queue.

Right? Right. And, I mean, I talk to most of them every day, I text them, I'm deeply in love with some of them, some of them I'm, I love deeply but I'm not in love with. Gotcha. Um, but when things happen among those six, like if we, somebody's having a falling out, somebody loses a job, somebody has a health crisis, it's like my life really changes and I really have to think about, What needs to move?

Do I need to move someone else in? Do I need to move someone else out? Do I need to spend a whole year taking extra special care of one person? Mmm, right, right. And then what's it gonna mean to everything else? So I love what you said about the bakery. Those things matter and I think poly life and poly living helps It's you're more likely to elevate and see the importance of these things because you're not just really Investing all your eggs in one basket You are hitting the soft spot for me.

Yeah, so Without I mean, I guess I would have been aware of the term polyamory Um, but the concept has already been I've been active in my life. And this is why your book hits so hard for me as someone who just went through a ridiculous medical situation over, uh, about a year and a half ago. And the, some of the individuals, um, That I thought would be By my side, my ride or die.

We're not. However, my kids were obviously there for me and my daughter did this, you know Herculean effort leaving Australia and coming to take care of me for a few months. But while, yep, while I was going through this process though, I mean, obviously there was the medical staff that we're all caring and loving, you know, UCLA, the mail carrier, you know, a couple of Uber eats delivery people, um, people I was just randomly coming into con into contact with.

I, on a couple of occasions would wake up in tears, just feeling such, An abundance of love and this gratitude, right? And yeah, for the care that I'm getting from these people who are part of my extended universe, my polycule, right? Your polycule, babe! No, and it's interesting because I feel like one of the big things in the monogamy imperative and the monogamy myth is that you have to couple up because you want to have someone take care of you in your old age.

And if you don't, you're going to be alone and it's scary. And it's like, you've got to lock this down when you're in your twenties and get your forever person. And in some instances you, you might do it with that intention and guess what? You end up being the damn caretaker and you get squatting. But also it's like, you know, isolating yourself in that couple.

I mean, you know what it means to really need care in a, in a, really vital life or death situation. Right. Exactly. And it requires a lot of people. It does requires a lot of different kinds of love and support. I was going to say with varying talents and strengths. And that's the thing, no, you've, we've heard, I think at some point everybody's heard, no one person can be everything to you, and you cannot be everything to one person, you know, and I think about, you know, my son, for a while there with this illness that I have, I was falling a lot, and you know, I mean, it sounds strange, but I almost loved falling when Isaiah was around because Isaiah is this, you know, giant Adonis and he just reached down and picked me up.

Yeah. Like I'm like this, you know, little flower, not so delicate maybe, but I'm this flower and it, you know, otherwise it's a struggle. For me to get up or even, you know, if, if my husband is there, it's like a struggle for him to help me out. But Isaiah, yeah, so you're like, you're getting, I know. It's incredible.

It's bizarre that he's 28 now and, and a grown up. Yeah. Um, but yeah, so everybody's, people are bringing different strengths to the table. To the polycule. Let me, let me go back for polycule and people may not know exactly what we're talking about. So can you define that for us? Yes, well, it's a contraction of.

Polyamory and molecule, right? I read that in the book and I never put that together. Right, and it's like, you know, it's, it's like Your map of your people. It's your, you know, just like you'd map a cell, you know? That's what you, you know, whoever's in your intimate, emotional, social, sexual, and you know, one of the things I love about the book in chapter four, I have like nine different people actually map their polycules for you.

Oh, so you can see You know, one person really likes a triad. One person has, you know, kind of a floating wave of people, right? Uh, one person has a primary partnership, what we often call a nesting partnership in poly terminology. And, but, has lots of people around them, including their college closest friends, right?

Okay. That really are. They're ride or dies, right? And those relationships aren't sexual, but they're very intimate. And they are the first phone call when something happens, right? And so they belong in the way that Elizabeth organizes her life. That's, they're in her polycules. They, you know, she does not, you know, hold her husband or primary partner above them in terms of priority in the way that she apportions her time, energy, love resources.

But you already answered a question I was going to lay on you, which was so in your opinion is monogamy a myth and really we could spend a whole episode on that. It pretty much is. Well, I mean, what I always say is monogamy is an imperative in our culture. It's really positioned as the only legitimate workable way to have.

an honorable relationship, right? Right. And any kind of imperative has a mythology about it, right? Yes. And, you know, the things in the mythology of monogamy is that one person will meet all your needs, all your sexual needs, your social needs, your partnership needs, your emotional needs. I mean, my God, the things, I mean, it's insane.

I think, I mean, I think, right. You know, lots of people don't. Have successful monogamous relationships and don't they don't subscribe to that part of the myth, right? They say oh actually my friends are really important to me or you know I'm going to extend my love in all kinds of ways and I'm not gonna get isolated in this relationship But the myth of monogamy really is Encourages you to get isolated in that relationship.

Oh, it absolutely does. It absolutely does. It encourages you to think that, you know, you're going to be hot for each other forever or there's something wrong with you. I was going to say, or there's some problem. Yeah. And the fact is though, and it's such a myth because, um, Uh, I think you referenced this in the book, and I want to say it's Kinsey.

Kinsey basically uncovers the, the non parental events. Yes. Right? Yes. So, yeah, like there's a whole lot less monogamy going on. Going on. Than we think there is. And really, I mean, if you look at, you know, our ancestors hundreds of years ago. I mean, monogamy really wasn't a thing until, like, agriculture and the ownership of things.

And we had to pass things, land and, and stuff down to people. And we had to know who was whose. But, uh, you know, before that, um, you know, and also, and I'm Irish, and you know, I've, I've gone back and traced my roots to Ireland and met my people and everything. And, and people always say, and the Irish.

hate ancestry. com because we are all related to each other and that, you know, joke about Irish cousins, but not the way it's been told to us. Right. Right. That, you know, all of us living in these small communities in proximity Uh, you know, the way the DNA tells the story is different than the stories that have been told, you know, at church and in our social halls and at school and, uh, you know, at our family reunions.

So that myth gets revealed and it's, I feel like, uh, you know, monogamy is this construct that, I don't know if it's around the same time that race became this construct, right? I mean, it's very interesting, right? I mean, you could think of monogamy as colonizing our, our culture. sexual and social lives, right?

And, I mean, it is a colonizing kind of, in my view, force. And again, not to, not to yuck anybody's yum, I have, I always say I have lots of really great friends who are monogamous and who are happy. Some of my best friends are monogamous. Some of my best friends are monogamous. And they're happy in their really long term relationships.

Right. And a lot of them have made, you know, very interesting, um, Innovations to the mythology, right? Um, and I think that's an amazing thing. That's an amazing thing to Find the person who's really right for you when you're in say your 20s And have that work for you, your whole life. Well, that means a lot of work you gotta go through with that, too.

But also, it's a rarity to have the luck, the resilience, the, the, um, the resources, the internal strength, you know, the therapy, whatever you want to say, right? I think the resilience is really a key point there. Right, right. And I think amazing for the people who have, but it is a rarity. You know what I mean?

That Yeah. And, and, and I think instead of saying, you know, this really works for some people and really works incredibly well, but it's not for everyone. I mean, that would even be a start in our culture. Right. Right. And it's, and that, but that statement is applicable to anything including monogamy. Right.

Right. And something that you just said. In terms of these people who are monogamous, who, you know, have this rare instance, I feel like one of the common denominators with that form of monogamy, that's quote, successful, where they're together and they're happy, not just together, together and they're happy.

And with folks who are successfully polyamorous is honesty, equity, I'm forgetting what else I read. We have full transparency. Thank you. Mutual respect. What I know you know. Yeah. I know you know. That's one of my favorites. That's a big one. Right. People will, this is a, uh, one of the sort of guidelines I have for a successful polyamorous relationship that I got from Asha Leon, who's one of our, uh, Uh, contributors in the book and she's a sex therapist in Atlanta and she says in her poly world and in her coaching, when I know, you know, means that, you know, when I have figured something out or when I have identified a problem or when I have a crush on my coworker or I'm scared about something, you know, whatever, when I know it.

And I've, you know, I've given myself enough space to come to understand it for myself, right? It's not like I have to like, blurt something or tell on myself or, or be vulnerable in a way that doesn't make sense to me, right? But when I have figured something out that matters to the relationship and matters to how I relate to you, when I know you know.

And I gotta say, I mean, in both, I do a lot of coaching with monogamous folks and poly folks. But so many people come to me saying, you know, they don't know what's wrong or they're confused or and they really do know what's wrong and they really are confused. But what they know is a very hard thing to know.

And usually, very often, the hard thing relates to someone not using the when I know you know guideline. Right? Right. That they have been You know, I mean, the number of people, I mean, there are nightmares in poly lanes and monogamy lanes, right? And they, and they Well, they all involve humans. No, and they so often relate to, you know, this kind of obfuscation of honesty.

I don't really know what honesty is. And it's actually, yeah, you do. It's really simple, actually. It is pretty simple. Yeah. You know, somebody comes home and says, well, we talked about monogamy before, but it's We said we wanted to be non monogamous and you know, I'm, you know, I'm having this thing with my coworker.

That's just how it is now. And you know, I, I mean, people will come in and the, you know, the partner will say, well, you know, we're poly now and this is how this went down and I was like, this isn't actually poly. Thank you. Right. Polyamory is not a cure for infidelity. Well, but also polyamory isn't like something grandfathered in or shoehorned in after someone's actually broken your trust.

Right. Thank you. Right. You know, used a conversation you had three years ago to try to put a cloud around where the trust has been broken or not. You know, there's just a lot of that. I mean, there's a lot of that among monogamous people. There's a lot of it among poly people. So I always say, you know, if you're, if you're a shitty communicator, you can't get honest with yourself and your monogamous, It's not going to go well in Polyland, right?

So it's like a lot of the book is, I have a lot of chapters organized around real basics around communication, you know, how to build trust and sustain trust, how to be honest and get honest, you know, and I gotta say. Everything that you're saying is applicable to any relationship, any relationship. Yes.

And I love reading about it though, in the context of polyamory and learning more about this. And I, it just spoke to me on so many levels, not only in my own relationships and past relationships, but really how I view, you know, I, I can fall in love with, uh, you know, I know the baker. I bet. I bet you fall in love with a lot of food people, Toni.

The butcher, the baker, oh yeah, you know, I mean, oh my lord. Um, so I wanted to ask you about any challenges or epiphanies you encountered while working on this book. And the other question I'm going to piggyback on to that is, because you've quoted a few you Was it hard getting folks to talk to you? No, people always talk to me about sex.

I was disowned as a young person for being queer. And it was almost like it just, it hung my shingle out that day. You know what I mean? It's like, since I was a very young person, people have come to me about their gender, sexuality, kinky, the stuff they're not telling anybody, the stuff that's happening in their relationships.

And the other thing is, you know, over time I've just become so intuitive. You know, I can see. You know, um, what's happening for people. So I've often been the person in the family saying, well, you know, I know you're not talking about this, but I, I think this is going on. And people are just like, shut up!

You see their minds blowing right in front of you. So, in fact, when I decided to do the book, I mean, I guess one of the epiphanies I had is that I wanted to really displace this idea of poly as basically having one heterosexual man at the center with two women on each side of him who may or may not relate to each other sexually, um, as like the poly paradigm.

You know, that's just not the world I've lived in. And, uh, since I've been doing this work forever, I have, like, kind of 50 collaborators that I could think about all over the world who might want to tell their Polly stories. Phenomenal. And it turns out that 24 of them were very willing to tell stories, and their stories just kind of light up the book.

They really do. We are thankful for their stories. It puts, so much life in the ideas, right? Cause people can get very sort of worn down by the jargon, which I totally relate to. It's like, whether you call it a polycule, I don't care what you call it. You know what I mean? It's like, how do you want to do life?

How do you want to do love? Who, you know, who do you want to bring in close? What does it look like? How does it work for you? Exactly. Which brings me to, well, before I get to my next point, what I love about it being bitten under the dummies. Banner is, you know, those great graphics and those, those, those interludes where here's a tip, or remember this, or here's a warning.

It helps. It really helps. Oh, I'm so glad! And what could really be written, I could see, you know, I think about Kinsey and I feel like this could be a really It's a very academic topic and you really just bring it to life and make it relatable and you're talking about your neighbors or yourself or your family members and you can see that reflected.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, I got to say my 24 contributors are incredible people. I've been doing sex and desire workshops with them for years. Um, I knew a lot about a lot of their families and the ways they've lived them. Um, and you know, they were just people that. You know, they just really try.

They just really keep working on growing and, you know, I mean, all of us have had various shitshows in our relationship history, right? But, um, I don't know. It's just a lot of people who really think about honesty and accountability and, and try really hard. And, and also, you know, because we've been doing these workshops, we've been just talking about this stuff together for a long time.

And so it felt Really incredible to bring people into this kind of rich, ongoing conversation because I think, you know, I'm 63. And I think a lot of people think, people my age, you know, like, don't know anything about this. I mean, I've been poly since I was in my twenties, really since the very beginning of my sexual life.

Okay. And it was not, you know, nobody liked it. I was going to say, you were a pioneer, really, in this culture. Nobody was happy about it. But, you know, as a young person, I could see when I was in college with these really hot guys as my lovers, that none of them were being monogamous. Right. But you were the woman.

Even if they were telling me they were being monogamous. Right. And I just thought, I'm not going to do that. You know? Um, and, uh, and so I got in a lot of trouble. Right? Right? I got, I got really branded for it. And in a way, I mean, huge gift. Oh, absolutely. You know what I mean? Because you're sort of beyond the pale.

It's like, I actually am just going to make this up how I want to. And I think that is like the joy of Polly for me. What a courageous and joyful path. to go on to. That just makes so much sense to me. We're running out of time, but I, I want to say, tell me, tell me if my intuition is right. In reading this book, I feel like your first book, Great Sex, is almost, maybe not pre required reading, but it's really helpful.

Tell me. Well, my first book really is based on a workshop I've done all over the world with these 24 people and more who are in the book. I mean, it really is about looking at the biography of your desire. Like your desire story. What a delicious term. Right? Yeah. And, you know, for most of us, when we start having desire, like we're 2, 3, 5, 7, and we come upon it and like, I'm quite sure when I started to masturbate or do anything self pleasuring as a young, very young child, I got hit for it.

Because by the time, I was like seven or eight or nine. I mean, I never touched myself. I never touched myself till I was starting to have sex as an adult. And I mean, I can only think that my Catholic mother made absolutely sure I was never touching myself, you know, and now as a mother of two kids, you know, they just touch themselves all the time.

It's just part of getting to know your body and being in your body. Right. So, um, I think that, um, People's desire histories start really young, and we get turned away from them as soon as our desire arrives. Absolutely. I mean, parentally, culturally, our families, uh, yeah. So, you know, and then even when we have partners who care about us when we're forming ourselves sexually, a lot of times, you know, We're overwhelmed in the presence of other people's revelations about what matters to them, right?

And so we just hide ourselves. We suppress what we know. We bury our story. We, some of us have to distance ourselves from our desire to survive. Right? And, and then some of us are aggressed upon in this very violent culture, and many of our early experiences of our desire are, are in, are with people who are doing us harm.

Absolutely. And we have to sift that out. And then in reading this book, again, I just had this sensation that, at least for me, yes, this would have to do with my sexual desire, my physical, but also other desires, other, you know, just reaching one's true essence that gets corralled and beaten down and pushed and molded and reshaped.

Absolutely. So that really great sex mapping your desire is about pulling out your story again and like finding it, digging it back out, like honoring it, taking it in, starting to like, yes, it's vital for our lives. Well, let me ask you this cause we're going to have to wind up. But, um, well first tell me what's next for you.

What's next for me is I'm about to go on a book tour all over. Yay. I'm going to the national L-G-B-T-Q Task Forces Creating Change Conference in Las Vegas. What is that in January 22nd of the 26th? Uh, I think it's the Rio Hotel. Okay. And I'm doing my workshop. I'm doing the Desire Mapping Workshop. I'm gonna have a big book launch party.

Okay. Timeout. If you're doing the Desire Mapping Workshop and it's open to the public? Uh, you, you probably, you could probably get a day pass for the conference or something. Okay, and is this the sort of workshop where, is it for queer folk? No, it's for anybody. I mean, really, people of every sexual orientation and like, 16 to 92 have taken the workshop.

Oh my gosh, come folks, come on down. You're going to see me there. I want to do this. I mean, it will be in the context of a queer conference. So there will be a ton of us, wonderful, wild, queer. It will be even more fabulous. But you know, like, um, you know, probably about like 120 people at least will take the workshop.

And then we just all sit in there and we, we go over our stories together. Love this. So, You're going to go on a book tour and we're going to be able to find the book tour. I'll get the dates from you, put, post them on my website. What's your website? My website is justsexpodcast. com. Okay. And we'll put a link to that in the show notes.

Yeah. And any other way that people can find you or reach you? Yeah. I mean, I'll just give you my email, which is JamieGrant @ Gmail. Great. And, you know, love to hear from anybody who wants to do stuff with the book. Oh, that's fantastic. Congratulations on the book. I have to ask you one other question, though.

That's because, you know, this started out as a food related podcast. Yes. Give you know, is my research. Drea, I'm going to give you the question, uh, besides your favorite meal. Let's go with what's your meal conjures favorite and strong memories for you. I have a great memory. Polly's story, which is the person I had my baby with Ella, my youngest.

When he turned 37, I had a party and I brought two dear friends. Uh, and it was just like, I took him to a very fancy stodgy DC restaurant and the three of us just like, Kissed him sat in his lap. Oh, you know and he's you know, a gender non conforming African american young person and You know, we were a mixed race team causing quite the scene quite the scene and I mean what I Just loved the celebration.

I loved the resistance in it. Yeah, I mean, I loved everything about that meal I I Oh my gosh, what did we eat? Give me one dish. Well, there was definitely a big steak. He's a steak eater. Yes. Uh, and then I think we had two vegetarians. So, you know, it was just, it was just like indulgent and. What a divine memory.

Yeah. I mean, it was so sweet, honestly. I mean, we were badly behaved, but honestly, it was just, I mean, it was a surprise for me. Everything about the thing was a surprise, you know, and, um. Yeah, I would definitely say, okay, you know. Well, thank you for sharing this, Jamie. I'm so happy we got to spend this time together, and we are definitely going to do this.

I mean, I want to see if we can get some more in before you go on your book tour. I love it. I'm so honored that you came and spent this time with me and my fledgling little podcast. Thank you. Love you tremendously. I love you so much. Everybody, you know where to find Polyamory for Dummies, and you'll find all the links and availabilities in the show notes.

Take care now.

Toni's Table is written by Toni Boyette and produced and edited by Steve Devoney. If you'd like more information or would like to send a message to Toni or make a comment or just gab about great restaurant towns, please visit us at tonistable. com. That's T O N I S T A B L E dot com. Thanks for listening and see you next time.

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